Andreja Katič za Večer: “Pri begunski krizi, s katero se danes sooča Evropa, gre v prvi vrsti za reševanje humanitarne krize.”

Z ministrico za obrambo Andrejo Katič se je za sobotno prilogo časnika Večer, ki je izšla v soboto, 29. avgusta, pogovarjal novinar Aleš Kocjan.

Gospa ministrica, kako se bo obrambni resor vključeval v reševanje z begunske krize, kateri je ta hip priča stara celina, če bo s tem problemom neposredno soočena tudi Slovenija?

“Sodelavci ministrstva za obrambo so aktivno sodelovali pri pripravi kontingentnega načrta, ki ga je vlada že potrdila. Pri begunski krizi, s katero se danes sooča Evropa, gre v prvi vrsti za reševanje humanitarne krize, zato pridejo obrambno ministrstvo, Uprava RS za zaščito in reševanje ter Slovenska vojska na vrsto za zagotavljanje svojih zmogljivosti in pomoči v poznejših fazah. Vodilno vlogo ima seveda notranje ministrstvo, ker koordinira aktivnosti in postopke pri reševanju te problematike. Mi se vključujemo v tretji fazi, če bi se v Sloveniji nastanilo več kot 500 migrantov. Tedaj nastopimo s svojimi kapacitetami, najprej z nastanitvenim centrom v Logatcu. Za primer preusmeritve migracijskih tokov preko ozemlja naše države pa smo na upravi za zaščito in reševanje že pretehtali vse morebitne scenarije in se posvetovali z vsemi humanitarnimi organizacijami, da smo tudi na to možnost pripravljeni.”

Kakšno vlogo utegne imeti vojska?

“Za zdaj ne predvidevamo vključevanja vojske. Glede nastanitvenih zmogljivosti pa je v pripravi, kot že rečeno, nastanitveni center v Logatcu. Bomo pa v kasnejši fazi oziroma ko bodo potrebe to izkazale, vojsko vključili v logistično pomoč, s prevozi, prehrano, nastanitvenimi kapacitetami, zagotavljanjem higienske in zdravstvene oskrbe.”

Pred šestimi leti sva v tej pisarni govorila z vašo predhodnico in strankarsko kolegico Ljubico Jelušič. Dejala je, da se bodo meje EU in Nata branile na Bližnjem vzhodu, če se bodo tam še naprej kopičili konflikti, zaradi katerih bi lahko bila ogrožena tudi Evropa. Zdaj smo soočeni s posledicami teh konfliktov v obliki množičnega eksodusa. Kako vidite sedanje razmere? Kot varnostno tveganje za Evropo ali kot humanitarno katastrofo 21. stoletja?

“V prvi vrsti mislim, da gre za humanitarno katastrofo največjih razsežnosti, s katero je v zadnjem obdobju Evropa neposredno soočena. Vsekakor pa te razmere prinašajo s seboj tudi varnostno tveganje, ne le zaradi prihoda beguncev, temveč zlasti zaradi razlogov, ki spodbujajo migracijske tokove in beg ljudi iz njihovih domovin.”

Menite, da Nato z ZDA na čelu in EU čutita del odgovornosti za to, da je konflikt na teh območjih eskaliral do te mere, da družine z otroki bežijo pred revščino, vojno, skrajnimi islamističnimi skupinami?

“Vsi v mednarodni skupnosti nosimo del odgovornosti za to in vsi bi se morali tega zavedati pri reševanju te problematike.”

V Evropi se že kopiči nestrpnost, posamezne skupine nasprotujejo množičnemu dotoku migrantov na staro celino. Se bojite, da bi lahko bili v Sloveniji priča takšnim ekscesom, da bo del javnosti nastopal z negativnim odnosom do problema, kateremu smo priča?

“V vsaki družbi imamo različne ljudi. Zagotovo prihaja v Sloveniji do posameznih tovrstnih mnenj, pri čemer menim in upam, da gre za osamljene primere. Prepričana sem, da je Slovenija odprta družba, kar smo v preteklosti že dokazali, ko smo se soočali s krizo na Balkanu. Tudi v tem primeru bomo znali pravilno odreagirati in pokazati enako mero razumevanja kot v 90-ih letih za ljudi v stiski.”

Slovenija je na politični ravni že vključena v soočanje z begunsko problematiko, saj je sklenila nameniti 1,3 milijona evrov za sodelovanje Triglava v operaciji EUNAVFOR. Ta ni kvalificirana kot humanitarna operacija, temveč kot vojaška. Kako gledate na to, da je Slovenija sklenila sodelovati pri preganjanju tihotapcev, ne pa reševanju beguncev?

“Drži, da operacija, ki jo omenjate, še ni povsem dodelana. Manjkajo pravne podlage, predvsem za kasnejše faze operacije, na kar so opozarjale številne države članice EU, tudi Slovenija. Jasno je bilo povedano, da je za takšno operacijo vojaške narave potrebno bodisi povabilo libijske vlade bodisi resolucija Varnostnega sveta OZN, da se lahko operacija razvija na način, kot je bila načrtovana. V prvi vrsti gre za boj proti tihotapcem, da se torej na ta način pomaga tudi beguncem. Namen je seveda preprečiti katastrofe, ki so se dogajale in se še dogajajo na morju, ko v prenatrpanih čolnih utone na stotine ljudi. Slovenska vlada je za zdaj sklenila sodelovati le v prvi fazi operacije. Ta del operacije pa je pretežno humanitarne narave. Gre torej za pomoč beguncem na morju. Na ta način je bila Slovenija lani že vključena s svojo ladjo Triglav v italijansko humanitarno operacijo Mare Nostrum.”

Ko govorimo o obrambnih zadevah, veliko govorimo o varnostnih tveganjih in grožnjah. Kaj danes po vašem mnenju ogroža Slovenijo?

“Treba je ločeno gledati Slovenijo kot samostojno in suvereno državo ter Slovenijo kot članico zveze Nato in EU. Trenutno nismo soočeni z grožnjo neposrednega napada na Slovenijo, smo pa v okviru zavezništva izpostavljeni vsemu, kar se dogaja v svetu. V tem pogledu prednjači kriza v Ukrajini in posledično poslabšanje odnosov z Rusijo. Nadalje so razmere nestabilne na Bližnjem vzhodu, soočamo se z različnimi oblikami terorizma v svetu, tudi v naši bližini. Vse to pa utegne vplivati na razmere na zahodnem Balkanu. Sogovornike v okviru EU in Nata opozarjamo, da ne smemo zanemariti Zahodnega Balkana, saj je to še zmeraj nemirno območje in ga lahko kriza v okoliških regijah dodatno destabilizira.”

Omenjate poslabšanje odnosov z Rusijo. Seveda govorite o poslabšanju odnosov med državami članicami Nata in EU na eni strani in Rusijo na drugi. Slovenske oblasti imajo v zadnjem času dobre odnose z Moskvo. Kako v zavezništvu gledajo na to?

“V Natu je bilo jasno dogovorjeno, da je treba implementirati sporazum iz Minska. EU je sklenila nadaljevati sankcije. Istočasno pa je bilo na vseh ravneh dogovorjeno ohranjati določen dialog z Rusko federacijo. V tem duhu temu sledi Slovenija. Z Rusijo smo trenutno obrambno in vojaško sodelovanje omejili, ohranjamo pa sodelovanje na področju zaščite in reševanja.”

Na srečanju z drugimi obrambnimi ministri niste dobili občutka, da sta slovensko-ruski odnos in obisk ruskega premierja Medvedjeva v Sloveniji nekakšna motnja?

“Nič takega nisem čutila, še zlasti ne, da bi bila Slovenija izpostavljena kot država s posebnim ali drugačnim odnosom do Rusije.”

Kakšna je vaša izkušnja iz Bruslja, kjer na sedežu Nata sedite ministri 28-erice zavezništva. Kakšen status uživa Slovenija?

“Nedvomno smo enakopravna in enakovredna partnerica za tem omizjem. Tudi mene osebno so kot novinko dobro sprejeli. Zlasti kolegice, obrambne ministrice drugih držav, so se izkazale kot izjemno kolegialne. Prepričana sem, da veljamo za kredibilno partnerico.”

Koliko žensk sedi za omizjem obrambnih ministrov v Natu?

“Kar nekaj. Obrambne resorje vodijo ženske v Italiji, Nemčiji, na Nizozemskem in Norveškem, v Albaniji in Črni gori ter Bosni in Hercegovini, če omenim še partnerski državi Nata. In naj povem, da imajo ministrice zelo odločno vlogo v razgovorih in razpravah na ministrskih srečanjih.”

Kakšnih očitkov ste deležni zaradi nizkih obrambnih izdatkov in skorajda popolne odsotnosti investicij v obrambo?

“Med 28 članicami smo država z najvišjim padcem obrambnih izdatkov. Še leta 2010 smo imeli obrambne izdatke v višini 1,61 odstotka BDP. Do letos so se skrčili na 0,95 odstotka BDP, pri čemer moramo vedeti, da je bil pred petimi leti tudi bruto družbeni proizvod v državi višji, kot je danes. Sedaj je v pripravi proračun za 2016 in 2017. Razumem, da je to težko obdobje in da bo zlasti leto 2016 za javne finance zelo zahtevno. Ko je bil julija na obisku generalni sekretar Nata Jens Stoltenberg, smo se o tem pogovarjali in nekaj tudi dogovorili. Neke zaveze smo dali. Generalni sekretar je odšel iz Slovenije zadovoljen. V vseh mednarodnih stikih se tudi z drugimi državami članicami nenehno pojavlja to vprašanje, saj smo se vsi s sprejemanjem strateških dokumentov zavezali k svojim prispevkom. Upam, da proračun za prihodnje obdobje še ni dokončan in da bomo sledili tem zavezam, ki smo jim dali.”

Ali lahko premierjeve zaveze Stoltenbergu razumemo tako, da je nižanje obrambnih izdatkov po petih letih doseglo dno. Prihodnje leto naj bi bil obrambni proračun na ravni letošnjega, od 2017 naprej pa vsako leto višji za 0,04 odstotka BDP?

“Mi smo pripravili Srednjeročni obrambni program za obdobje 2015-2020, v katerem smo načrtovali skladno z dogovorom in zavezami. V razrezu proračuna, ki predstavlja okvire za posamezne proračunske porabnike, so te številke nekoliko drugačne. Ponavljam, da razumemo, da bo leto 2016 težko, in da bo izjemno zahtevno sestaviti proračun. Za naprej pa pričakujemo, da se bomo še dogovarjali o obsegu sredstev in da bomo sledili obljubam, ki smo jih dali. Pričakujem, da se bo razrez v septembru do potrditve proračuna na seji vlade še spreminjal. Upam, da bomo sledili zavezam, ki smo jih dali pred domačo in tujo javnostjo.”

Razrez kaže, da bo obrambni resor iz integralnega dela proračuna v letu 2016 dobil med 200 in 300 tisoč evri več. V letu 2017 pa milijon evrov več kot v 2016.

“Drži. Če to preračunate v odstotke BDP, ki ga pričakujemo v prihodnjih dveh letih, pa boste videli, da to ne sledi temu, kar smo napovedali generalnemu sekretarju.”

Ste se že pogovarjali s finančnim ministrom Mramorjem na štiri oči?

“S finančnega ministrstva smo dobili odgovor na naš Srednjeročni obrambni program 2015-2020. To mnenje je bilo negativno. Zato sem predlagala novo srečanje. Na tisti dolgi proračunski seji konec julija je bilo dogovorjeno, da bomo postavke za 2017 še pregledali. Zato mislim, da bi moralo priti do drugačnega razreza za 2017.”

Kaj bi pomenilo, če Slovenija besede, ki jo je dal premier Cerar generalnemu sekretarju Nata Stoltenbergu, ne bi držala?

“Slovenija mora – zlasti to velja za obrambno ministrstvo – ravnati gospodarno s svojim denarjem, hkrati pa izvršiti vse, kar je bilo dogovorjeno. Ne le zaradi obljub, izrečenih v okviru Nata in EU, temveč predvsem zaradi naše države same. Pomembno je, da sledimo temu in da poskrbimo za lastno varnost. Po drugi strani pa je jasno, da to ne bo možno v takem obdobju, kot je načrtovano, če proračun temu ne bo sledil. Zato menim, da bo potreben premislek. Tako je nakazalo tudi ministrstvo za finance z vprašanjem, ali je obramba tudi del prioritet slovenske države. Glede na to, da obramba ni le Slovenska vojska, temveč tudi zaščita in reševanje ter pomoč vojske v primeru naravnih in drugih nesreč, menim, da mora biti obrambna absolutno uvrščena med prioritete države.”

Kaj prinaša postopno minimalno višanje obrambnih izdatkov za obrambni sistem?

“Razvoj Slovenske vojske imamo začrtan z dolgoročnimi strateškimi dokumenti. Srednjeročni obrambni program za petletno obdobje je le izvleček tega. Če ministrstvo ne razpolaga z zadostnimi viri, to pomeni, da se načrtovane aktivnosti zamikajo v poznejše obdobje. V prihodnjih letih je ključno osnovno opremljanje vojakov, nadalje za ohranjanje obstoječih zmogljivosti. Naša oprema je stara, zato je treba veliko denarja vlagati v vzdrževanje in ohranjanje zmogljivosti te opreme. Šele potem lahko začnemo govoriti o modernizaciji. Pri tem velja omeniti, da največji delež našega proračuna porabimo za stroške dela, manj kot odstotek za modernizacijo. Naša zaveza je, da ta trend obrnemo, zato moramo marsikaj postoriti tudi sami pri sebi, da se razmere izboljšajo. Brez primernih sredstev bo to težko doseči.”

Nato priporoča 20 odstotkov obrambnih izdatkov za modernizacijo. Slovenija namenja, kot pravite, manj kot odstotek. Še dolgo ne boste obrnili tega trenda po zavezniških merilih.

“Po naših izračunih bi takšno razmerje dosegli šele po letu 2020. In to ob predpostavki, da bi naša zaveza, dana Stoltenbergu, obveljala – če bo torej obrambni resor v prihodnjem letu deležen enakega deleža sredstev v razmerju do BDP in potem postopoma vsako leto za 0,04 odstotka BDP več. Dokler ne dosežemo ustrezne ali priporočene delitve obrambnih sredstev, pa moramo ohranjati stanje in nadgrajevati obstoječo opremo. Tudi zato je zelo pomembno, da pripravimo realen srednjeročni program, saj morajo države članice zavezništva vedeti, na kakšen doprinos lahko računajo z naše strani.”

Sindikat ministrstva za obrambo vam očita neodgovorno razporejanje sredstev iz obrambnega proračuna – med drugim so kritični do nabave brezpilotnih letal v času krize, ko so vojaki napol bosi. Kako gledate na to razdvojenost, da Nato na eni strani pričakuje več investicij, naše vojake pa celo tiste, ki se znajdejo v odstotku sredstev iz obrambnega proračuna, zmotijo?

“Na prvem mestu je tudi zame varnost naših vojakov. Imeti morajo ustrezno opremo in usposobljeni morajo biti za delovanje. Nedvomno pa je za sindikaliste na prvem mestu položaj delavca. In prav je tako. Zato moramo eni in drugi iskati ustrezne rešitve. Če Slovenija ne bo sprejela zaveze, da so obramba ter zaščita in reševanje del proračunskih prioritet, bomo morali opraviti resen razmislek o tem, kako v prihodnje. V zvezi z javnim naročilom brezpilotnih letal pa bi izpostavila, da je bilo med tremi ponudbami izbrano slovensko podjetje C-Astral iz Ajdovščine. Dosegli smo najnižjo ceno. Hkrati velja omeniti, da je obrambno ministrstvo v preteklosti sofinanciralo razvoj brezpilotnikov in tudi na tej osnovi je omenjeno podjetje razvilo vrhunsko tehnologijo in je danes uspešen in uveljavljen proizvajalec brezpilotnih letal tudi na mednarodnih trgih. Bi pa vseeno odgovorila glede zagotovitve ustrezne osebne opreme za pripadnike Slovenske vojske. To bomo za vse zagotovili do konca letošnjega leta.”

Kaj se bo zgodilo, če bodo vojaki vsi po vrsti po sodni poti terjali izplačilo nadur? Po uradnih podatkih imajo vojaki skupno neporavnanih okrog 400.000 nadur, sindikati pa operirajo z nekajkrat višjo številko.

“O tem vprašanju obstajajo različna pravna mnenja. Dokler zadeve niso razčiščene, težko minister sledi eni razlagi. Razmere spremljamo, tožbe za zdaj niso množične. Nedvomno pa je to težava, ki se vleče že vrsto let. V preteklosti vprašanje nadur ali prerazporejenih ur ni bilo razrešeno. Pa ne le v vojski, podoben problem imajo medicinske sestre in še nekateri poklici s specifičnimi oblikami delovanja. Delo v vojski poteka v drugačnih delovnih razmerah in ob neenakomerno razporejenem delovnem času. Zato je težko posploševati in iskati pavšalne rešitve za vse. Žal je treba pogledati od primera do primera in vsakega posamično reševati. Kakor bo na sodišču odločeno, temu bomo sledili.”

Že štiri leta zapored vojska ne dosega vladnega kadrovskega načrta. Čemu pripisujete razloge za to, da vojska ne more zapolniti svojih vrst?

“Obstaja nekaj konkretnih razlogov, drugo je splošno mnenje dela slovenske javnosti, da vojske ne potrebujemo. Javno mnenje na splošno ni naklonjeno vlaganju v obrambo ter v zaščito in reševanje. Konkretno pa mlade odvrača od poklica vojaka nizka plača, ki znaša za vojaka za začetnika 922 evrov bruto. Povprečna plača slovenskega vojaka je nekoliko nižja od plač v primerljivih poklicih. Poleg tega imajo vojaki zaposlitev za določen čas do 45. leta starosti in za zdaj nimamo sprejetih jasnih rešitev, kako naprej. Vsekakor je treba okrepiti zavedanje, da sta vojska ter sistem zaščite in reševanja pomembna segmenta slovenske družbe. Če bomo sprejeli rešitve za vojake po 45. letu, bo precej lažje. Novi zakon o obrambi, ki ga pripravljamo, bo ponudil nekatere rešitve. Velja pa omeniti tudi to, da imamo dokaj zahtevne kriterije za sprejem v vojaške vrste. Za začetek obstaja starostna omejitev do 25. leta. Razmišljamo o tem, da bi starostno mejo dvignili, toda po drugi strani je v Slovenski vojski povprečna starost skoraj 40 let. V primerljivih vojskah je ta pod 30 leti. Žal pa moram povedati, da relativno veliko prijavljenih kandidatov ne izpolni zdravstvenih in psihofizičnih kriterijev. Številni imajo povišan holesterol, čezmerno telesno težo, slabo zobovje, slabo fizično kondicijo … Mi pa potrebujemo vojake z dobro kondicijo in v ustreznem zdravstvenem stanju, da lahko opravljajo svoje naloge in da lahko gredo na operacije, kjer je zdravstvena oskrba omejena.”

Soočate se tudi z družbenim problemom – vojaki nimajo ustreznega družbenega statusa in ugleda, četudi vojska kot institucija, sodeč po raziskavah Politbarometra, na lestvici zaupanja v institucije vztrajno kotira pri vrhu. Kakšne ukrepe načrtujete ali morda že izvajate za dvig ugleda vojske?

“Oblikovali smo delovno skupino, ki pripravlja načrt za promocijo Slovenske vojske, da bi se več mladih vključilo v njene vrste. Iščemo torej kratkoročne rešitve, vsi pa se zavedamo, da bo treba poiskati dolgoročne sistemske rešitve. Tudi s tem se intenzivno ukvarjamo. Mlad človek mora videti svojo karierno pot v vojski, zato je treba urediti sistem plač, treba je odpraviti anomalije in poiskati odgovore na neodgovorjena vprašanja. Treba je spremeniti naš odnos, zagotoviti karierni sistem, rešiti status vojakov po 45. letu itd.”

Vašega predhodnika Janka Vebra je s položaja odnesla skrb zaradi posledic spremembe lastništva v Telekomu, ki za zdaj ostaja v slovenski lasti. Je to dobro?

“Mislim, da bi morala vlada vsa podjetja, ki še niso privatizirana, uvrstiti v nedavno sprejeto Strategijo upravljanja kapitalskih naložb, torej tudi tista, ki še niso prodana s seznama petnajstih, katerega je državni zbor potrdil za privatizacijo junija 2013. Sedaj, ko je Telekom ostal v slovenski lasti, ga je po mojem treba vključiti v strategijo in določiti skladno z njo cilje, ki jih mora podjetje doseči. Država ni slab lastnik, lahko pa je slab upravljavec premoženja. Strategija upravljanja kapitalskih naložb je prvi tovrstni dokument, ki ga imamo v Sloveniji, in jasno nakazuje, kako naj bodo upravljana podjetja, kakšno donosnost morajo imeti.”

Vebra je v resnici odneslo s položaja naročilo Obveščevalno-varnostni službi (OVS) ministrstva za obrambo, naj analizira spremembo lastništva v Telekomu za varnostni sistem. Vi ste na hearingu napovedali zamenjavo direktorja OVS. Zakaj vaš prvi izbor za predsednika vlade ni bil ustrezen?

“S predsednikom vlade sva imela kar nekaj tehtnih razgovorov na to temo. Strinjal se je z oceno, da je bil predlagani kandidat kompetenten, vendar je menil, da bi bilo dobro, če bi za direktorja OVS imenovali koga, ki že dela v obveščevalni dejavnosti, torej bodisi v OVS bodisi v Sovi. Opravljamo nove razgovore, neki izbor kandidatov že imamo in kmalu bomo svoj izbor spet predstavili predsedniku vlade.”

Kdo pa je bil vaš prvi kandidat?

“Ne bi ga želela javno izpostaviti. Lahko pa povem, da nobeno od imen, ki so krožila v javnosti, ni bilo pravo.”

Kako ocenjujete prvo leto sodelovanja v Cerarjevi koaliciji? Vaša stranka velja za nestabilno partnerico, poleg sodelovanja v vladi vse bolj tekmuje z opozicijsko Združeno levico, ki se prebija na vrh javnomnenjskih lestvic in zelo očitno krade volivce iz vašega bazena.

“Ne strinjam se z oznako, da smo nestabilna partnerica. Nobena slovenska vlada še ni prenehala dela zaradi Socialnih demokratov. Glede delovanja koalicije in vlade pa menim, da bo v drugi polovici leta še bolj jasna usmeritev vlade, saj bodo v parlament posredovani številni strateški dokumenti, kot je bila denimo strategija upravljanja. Menim, da je v koaliciji pomemben prispevek Socialnih demokratov, ker je pomembno za Slovenijo, da ohrani naklonjenost ljudem in da se vzpostavlja ravnovesje med kapitalom in prispevkom delavca k dodani vrednosti. Vprašanje, kam bi se tehtnica nagnila, če ne bi bilo Socialnih demokratov v vladi.”

Kako kot obrambna ministrica sodelujete z vašim vrhovnim poveljnikom, nekdanjim predsednikom vaše stranke?

“S predsednikom republike, gospodom Borutom Pahorjem, se že veliko let poznava. Najino sodelovanje je dobro. Predsednik kot vrhovni poveljnik mora biti dobro seznanjen z vsem, kar se dogaja v Slovenski vojski. Zato se o najbolj ključnih vprašanjih redno posvetujemo. Seveda pa je ravno tako pomembno dobro sodelovanje s predsednikom vlade, ki je prvi minister med ministri.”

Kako gledate na stališča predsednika republike danes, ko govori, da je treba povečati obrambni proračun, čeprav je ravno on kot predsednik vlade začel trend nižanja obrambnih izdatkov?

“Vedeti moramo, da je imel obrambni resor leta 2010 neprimerno več sredstev kot danes, ko se manko resnično pozna. Takratni predsednik vlade gotovo ni pričakoval, da bodo te odločitve imele tako dolgoročne posledice in da bodo vsi naslednji predsedniki vlad naprej nižali obrambne izdatke.”

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